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E&OEÌý

GARY ADSHEAD:ÌýAll of aÌýsudden,Ìýwe hear from the CSIRO that they will be losing 350 researchers and scientists in various capacities. WeÌýdon’tÌýknowÌýexactly where,ÌýweÌýdon’tÌýknow what the criteria is for the job losses, but we certainly know thatÌýthey’reÌýhappening. AndÌýwe’veÌýalso heard the Prime Minister speaking about itÌýearlierÌýtoday as well.ÌýI’llÌýjust remind you about what the Prime Minister said when he was being spoken to byÌýaÌýjournalist today at a press conference while he was here withÌýtheÌýcabinet onÌýCSIRO.Ìý

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GARY ADSHEAD:ÌýNow,Ìýamongst the agencies and the people that are concerned about this is ľ¹ÏÓ°Ôº. LukeÌýSheehy, theÌýchief executive of ľ¹ÏÓ°Ôº,Ìýjoins me on the line.ÌýThanksÌýfor your time, Luke.Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýGoodÌýto be with you.Ìý

GARY ADSHEAD:ÌýAnd I thinkÌýyou’reÌýin PerthÌýat the moment, aren’t you?Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýI am in Perth,Ìýenjoying this beautiful weather becauseÌýit’sÌývery cold for us normally down in the eastern part of the world.Ìý

GARY ADSHEAD:ÌýNow,Ìýjust on a couple of things from your point of view, are these cuts within theÌýCSIROÌýwarrantedÌýbecause it had become too overstaffed and resourced?Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýLook, universities are concerned about cuts to the CSIRO, we are concerned about structural underfunding for research activities in universities andÌýwe’reÌýalso concerned about the worrying lack of investment by our businesses and particularly big businesses in research and development in this country.ÌýSo,Ìýthe 350 job cuts to theÌýCSIROÌýareÌýjust another worrying trend in the direction of where Australia’s heading when it comes to research and development.ÌýIt’sÌýnot only worrying for the 350 workersÌýwhoÌýwill go into Christmas more anxious, more worried, butÌýthey’llÌýalso be going nowhere in terms of helping Australia to build that prosperous future that we need withÌýinvestment inÌýR&DÌýto createÌýnew ideas, new products, new breakthroughs.ÌýWe areÌývery concernedÌýabout the cuts because Australia needs to lift its game inÌýR&DÌýacrossÌýCSIRO, across universities and particularly in our business community.Ìý

GARY ADSHEAD:ÌýNow, just in terms of what you said there going into Christmas with a lot of uncertainty, we don’t, well, I don’t knowÌýyou might have more of an idea,Ìýif you’ve heard anything on the grapevine about which areas are going to be losing staff. WeÌýdon’tÌýeven know state by state. Have you heard anything about that?Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýWeÌýhaven’tÌýheard the full details about where these cuts will fall, but for WA, we know thatÌýnearly 12Ìýper centÌýof theÌýCSIROÌýworkforce is here in Western Australia.ÌýThat’sÌýnearly 700Ìýworkers who will be thinking is my job up? AndÌýthat’sÌýan important part of the workforce here in Western Australia. Many of those workers are co-located with our wonderful universities here in Western Australia. AndÌýthat’sÌýreally worrying.ÌýIt’sÌýreally worrying for individuals,Ìýit’sÌýworrying for families. But the point universities are making is this is a worrying trend thatÌýwe’reÌýreducing our overall investment, particularly fromÌýtheÌýgovernment,Ìýat a timeÌýwe need to lift it. Why do we need to lift it, Gary? Because our competitor countries are turbochargingÌýtheir efforts in research and development. Take countries like Singapore, Germany, South Korea, andÌýI’veÌýjust come from a university-led delegation in China,Ìýwhere their research and development as a percentage of GDP is somewhere in the ballpark of seven toÌýeight per cent.ÌýIn Australia,Ìýwe’reÌýlagging behindÌýat 1.6 to 1.7Ìýper cent.ÌýIt’sÌýnearly halfÌýof the OECD average.ÌýWe’veÌýgot a lot of work to do in boostingÌýR&D, so we can catch up in this global competition for research and developmentÌýandÌýnew ideas.Ìý

GARY ADSHEAD:ÌýI note youÌýdidn’tÌýmention the US then probably because youÌýhadn’tÌýbeen there, but no comparison. Surely,Ìýwe’reÌýnot being compared to whatÌýthey’reÌýdoing in the US in and around science,Ìýare we?ÌýÌý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýThere areÌýreally worryingÌýtrends about what the Trump administration has been doing with investment in science and research. ButÌýlet’sÌýnot forget, the private sector in the US has a formidable effort when it comes to research and development. And the overall effort in the US really eclipses Australia’s effort. We are risking being left behind in the global economy and the global race for research and development to ensure that we’ve got new businesses, new products, new ideas and importantly,Ìýnew breakthroughs like medical breakthroughs that will help us become healthier and live better and stronger and healthier lives.ÌýÌý

GARY ADSHEAD:ÌýLuke, it is odd that theÌýPrimeÌýMinisterÌýis arguing that they came into power,ÌýobviouslyÌýa fair way after the AbbottÌýGovernment had made those cuts to the CSIRO and then increasedÌýtheÌýbudget.ÌýHe’sÌýtalked about how they increased the budget, but then we suddenly find ourselves,Ìýonly three years on,Ìýfrom when they wereÌýelected,Ìýwith 350 this time. ButÌýwe’reÌýbeing told thatÌýthere’sÌýbeen something like over the last 18 months, 1,100 staff disappearing from there.Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýThis is whyÌýwe’reÌýworried, Gary. This is going in absolutely the wrong direction. CSIROÌýis an iconic institution in Australia.ÌýIt’sÌýproduced breakthroughs likeÌýWi-Fi.ÌýIt’sÌýan incredible asset for theÌýcountry,ÌýasÌýour universities areÌýasÌýyou’dÌýexpect me to say.ÌýThe government has aÌýboldÌýambition to lift Australia’s research and development as a percentage of GDP toÌýthree per cent.ÌýWe’reÌýat 1.6 to 1.7Ìýper centÌýat the moment.ÌýIt’sÌýnot getting us in the right direction.ÌýWe want the government toÌýdeliverÌýwhat it committed to in its policy platform at not the last election, but the election before that.ÌýIt’sÌýimportant they put their money where their aspirations are and invest inÌýR&D.Ìý

GARY ADSHEAD:ÌýI wonder if there is a concern about these 350 in this instance and where they then find work. I mean, do they go off to the private sector or is itÌýnot quite thatÌýsimple?Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýI think theÌýpoint thatÌýwe’veÌýbeen making through the review of research, which is yet to table its final report to the government,Ìýand through our advocacy is that Australia risks a brain drain.ÌýOur best and brightest whoÌýareÌýat our universities,ÌýatÌýCSIROÌýand in industry, particularly here in Western Australia, with a fantasticÌýR&DÌýhappening, particularly in the resources industry, we risk sending a signal to them saying, not enough money, not enough investment in Australia,Ìýgo overseas. Look whatÌýthey’reÌýdoing in our region in Singapore, in Europe with Horizon Europe, billions of euros of funding for research and development across their member states, even in North America.ÌýWe need to get real about securing our future and supporting research and development, which is going to support our future economy and ourÌýfutureÌýway of life. I thinkÌýit’sÌýimportantÌýthat the government puts those investments into helpingÌýboost and deliver on its own aspirations forÌýthree per centÌýof research and development across our economy.Ìý

GARY ADSHEAD:ÌýAlright, well certainly theÌýPM’sÌýin the firing line in relation to the questionsÌýhe’sÌýgettingÌýat the momentÌýandÌýprobably pressureÌýisÌýfrom behind the scenes as well.ÌýWe’llÌýseeÌýwhether or notÌýthings get reversed in relation to that 350 people. As you said, somewhere insideÌýtheÌýCSIROÌýtheyÌýare wondering whetherÌýthey’llÌýhave a job by Christmas. Thank you very much for joining us,ÌýLuke.Ìý

LUKE SHEEHY:ÌýThanks for having me.Ìý

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